Creatively exploring the playground of life with Kym Dakin Neal - 20 Jan 2025
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Welcome to soul led creative women. A podcast for women. passionate about personal growth, seeking bold, brave ways. to navigate life's ups and downs
So today I have Kym Dakin Neal with me. Kym has been a working creative coach and trainer for almost 30 years.
She utilizes theater and improv skills in high impact experiential training through her company Voice Into Learning. Kym's book Head, Heart and Hands Listening in Coach Practice was released last year and is a North American Book Award winner. So welcome Kym. Thank you. Thanks Samantha.
So first let's just start with your creative journey. Tell us about your relationship with creativity and how you found your own clarity and confidence by finding your creative voice. Okay. I guess, yeah, hearing that I've been [00:01:00] at this for. 30 years was kind of, it was like, wow, that's a long time.
And, yeah, how did I get started? Well, you know, I guess. I guess when I was in elementary school, I was,I was fascinated with astronomy, you know, they would show us these films of, of stars and galaxies and nebulas. And I thought, Oh wow, that's so cool. I want to be an astronomer. But at the same time, it was clear that my skills did not lie in the wonderful world of math.
So I hit the great math wall, and I never really got over it. But at the same time, It was very clear that my skills did lie in language and writing and art and [00:02:00] creativity and all those things that your parents look at you and go, yeah, but what are you going to do for a living? So, so well, I said, you know, I wanted to be a scientist, but clearly I'm not wired in the right direction.
So, I have been, I've been a writer for most of my life.I've had things published in various publications, but I, I was never really encouraged to take that or any part of my creativity, particularly seriously.but you know, that didn't stop me because I just kept, I just kept going. And I have a a theater background.
I. I got my undergrad degrees in communications and theater, and [00:03:00] I got my master's degree in adult education. And I became really intrigued with and pretty passionate about the benefits of experiential learning. Throughout our education, but also for adult learning, you know, adult learning tends to stick people in front of a bunch of content, numbers, data points, and then they wonder why the the training isn't taking, so.
I started my own company. we did a lot of experiential training work, pretty intense role plays around sexual harassment.anyone who asks, I know how to sexually harass anyone. So, but the, with the idea of, You know, training, sticking people in front videos and checking off a box was pretty much what's going [00:04:00] on.
And our trainings were much more effective and interactive and engaging, but they were also more expensive. I had to hire people and take us on the road. And, but, it was, it was interesting work and I. Then I started to get people who were interested in, presentation coaching, and I started to build my practice and.
I got certified in the positive intelligence model, one of the reasons I loved the positive intelligence model is because it's easily grasped. And, it's built on the premise that we have an internal critic who is always with us and getting in our way, but that there are also nine different saboteurs, And these guys are really interesting [00:05:00] and based on our positive qualities.
My key saboteur is called Restless. And Restless is highly distractible, you know, squirrel every which way. However, Restless is also based in being highly adaptable and flexible. and very inventive. So it would make sense that that would be my primary saboteur, no matter how much I try to work on it.
It just, it's, it's always with me, but I, it makes for interesting conversations. So, did that, I was doing some training for the Department of Environmental Protection. They had, field operators whose primary job was to go in and have one to one conversations with landowners [00:06:00] who were in violation of some environmental statute.
And these were fairly hostile conversations that were not going well. And so, I got hired for communications training. to get them to, to communicate better. But after talking to them and working with them, I started to get curious about what they were listening for in conversations, you know, these are highly skilled scientists.
They've got a lot of data, a lot of charts and graphs, a lot of facts and figures, but I think we're coming to realize how much facts and figures. Do not change people's behavior, their attitudes, and, you need to grab their attention in other ways. So that's when I got curious about how we listen and what we listen for, which is the topic of my book.
Sure. [00:07:00] And I came up with the model of head, heart and hands listening, which is actually based on Waldorf model of early childhood education. Okay. But I saw this nowhere applied to adult life. So that's kind of, I guess it's a roundabout way of answering your question. Sure. So, I mean, you know, reflecting on what you just said there about your book being based on principles from, you know, a childhood, education principle, so I mean, taking that, you know, how important do you really think that this play and experimentation is for adults, to experience growth and, personal fulfillment in life?
Yeah, I think it's really key.we don't pay enough attention to play, the value of play. I personally do not pay enough attention to the value of play. I'm, I'm like a, an accomplishment junkie, you know, with the to do [00:08:00] list. And I have to remind myself to actually schedule time for fun in my daily. lifeand one of the One of the ways I do that, well, when I think of self care for myself and play time, the first thing that comes to mind is getting out in nature.
Sure. I, I am fortunate to live in the beautiful state of Maine in the United States. and well, in certain seasons, the weather can be challenging. I set myself the goal to get outside for at least 20 minutes every day, no matter what the weather is. and as long as you got the right clothing, there's no such thing as bad weather.
so that's one of the things that comes to mind for me with play. but the other thing that I've started doing is I've got a collage station next to my desk [00:09:00] with, Magazine cutouts and a notebook and, just, some glue sticks and scissors. Sure. And I can take a 15 minute collage break. Now, I'm not saying that I'm a collage artiste, I was just having fun, you know, and, and so I let myself do that.
And in 15 minutes, it's interesting to me how my Whatever I'm bringing into it, if I'm bringing a certain amount of tension and stress, it really seems to dissipate by playing with shape and color and texture. How did you get started with that? What, what prompted that, that concept? Well, I'm a pretty crappy artist per se.
So, I figure I, you know, pair of scissors and some magazines, I can cut out other people's art and kind of play around with it and see what [00:10:00] I And sometimes it's very satisfying. Yeah. Most of the time it's just, you know, kind of silly, but that's all right. And when you show up for that, you know, what's your intention often?
Like why, what, what prompts you to sort of show up for that kind of activity? It's a really nice question.sometimes what prompts me is the reminder on my phone. Okay. Right. It's like I'm in the middle of something or I'm completing something or I'm frustrated about something and the phone goes off, you know, it's collage time and it's like, I am so not in the mood, but I, when I make myself go anyway, it's like the intention is simply to show up for 15 minutes.
You know, that's all, the same thing with writing, I have set myself, I've set myself the goal of writing a poem once a week. posting on my Substack channel on [00:11:00] Fridays. People have been enjoying them. I find it easier to write poems than I do making collages. But, you know, I'm doing both. So,a friend of mine, I got started with the, with the poems.
A friend of mine, suffered a horrible, brain injury. She, she is an inveterate. nature person. if you put Cindy in the Amazon with a pen knife, she can find her way out. She's one of those, right?but she was hiking at quite a clip, with a hat that prevented her from seeing this low hanging bow.
and so she got a terrible concussion. couldn't work, couldn't look at screens, couldn't read. So when she started to recover, a bit more and was bored out of her mind. I went over to read to her and [00:12:00] the book that I chose for us was, the Hidden Life of Trees. Okay. Peter, I believe his last name is Wohlleben.
I think that's correct. A botanist and a forest ranger in Germany. And the photos in the photo version. are just stunning. As we both love trees, Cindy and I, we explored our way through that book, which was so, I, it just was It was healing for both of us, I would say. Later, she sent me a big batch of interesting photos of strange and interesting trees.
And that's when I started writing poems. I started writing poems. And I think I have about 50 of them now. So I post them on my Substack [00:13:00] channel. They're a lot of fun. And I've started this thing now where, for paid subscribers, if you send me a photo of your favorite tree or some other piece of your favorite rock, whatever, I'll conjure up a poem just for you.
Beautiful. Love that. That's beautiful. So, I mean, a lot of people don't, they push away their creativity, you know, they, they don't make the time for 15 minutes of collage or, you know, writing poetry or whatever, you know, they actually should be doing or want to be doing. Why do you think that is? Well, we're all busy and, we live in a world where time is money and it's hard for us to give ourselves permission to do what feels just
playful.and for some people who are really on the hamster wheel, of [00:14:00] productivity, have nine to five jobs, have kids, perhaps they have aging parents that they're concerned about. It's really difficult to give oneself permission to do something, a, that we don't feel particularly gifted at. Sure.
Right. And, B. Our internal critic will just jump all over us if we try new just for the sake of trying something new and fun. We don't give ourselves permission to be creative. We don't give ourselves permission to make mistakes. And I think two of those things. are related. Well be vulnerable, right?
There's a vulnerability to it too, right? That's right. How, how does innovation happen if you don't allow yourself experimentation time and experimentation time [00:15:00] within that are mistakes, possibly several of them, but every mistake gets you closer to a win. So what was it for you? I mean, it sounds like you've been creative your whole life, but when did you start to really give yourself that permission?
You know, what was the catalyst for you to really honour that and to prioritise and value that sort of special creative time, vulnerable time, I guess. I've gone through periods of my life where I've been in nine to five jobs, when my daughter was small.
I went to graduate school, I was working, she was four or five, six years old.it was just like, I have so many plates spinning in the air. I, I would just, I could barely even read before crashing and burning and falling asleep, you know, [00:16:00] and I didn't like the person I was becoming. I was tense. I was snappy.
I was irritable. I was showing up and doing my duty everywhere. But I was. I was really unhappy and I was making the people around me unhappy.and there was one point when my daughter was five, I believe, where I was home with her and I was trying to get some work done and she wanted me to play with her.
And I could, I, I played with her a little while and then I had to go back to work and she would start bugging me and bugging me. And it was, Then she marched right up to me, put her little face into my face and said, Mommy, play with me. [00:17:00] And the look on her face was so sad and heartbreaking. It's hard to talk about this.
Even now she's 26, you know, it's still hard to talk about it. I just knew at that moment I needed to change. I needed to change how I was doing. myself and my life because I was in danger of becoming one of those mothers, you know, we've all seen them and many of us have been them.so I took a little time off.
I went to a retreat for three days.and it was the, It was the first, span of time that was unstructured in, I don't know, maybe ten years. Mm hmm.I cried through [00:18:00] a big batch of it.but they had an art studio on the premises where I was. And I made a shadow box that I really liked with cutouts and buttons.
a portion of a tree branch that I'd found and there was something so deeply satisfying about it. I just thought I've got to get more, more of this into my life. Wow. That's beautiful. I love that. What a special, a special little story. Yeah. I mean, kids are our biggest teachers really, aren't they? And then, you know, for you to then sort of, you know, Let go.
It's that letting go. You let go and you found something. Yeah. It's like I had to slow down enough to pay attention to what was really going on inside me. Hmm. [00:19:00] So good. Yeah. So how do you then think sort of, you know, switching sort of into some of your work, how do you think creativity then links to mindset and confidence, you know, how does it help us?
Yeah.I started to notice for myself that whatever working situation I'm in, whatever working relationship I'm in, I need to be very clear about the value that I'm offering.
And I started to notice that if I can come up with a slightly different way of doing things, and I can suggest different ways into problems, different questions that people haven't thought about. [00:20:00] If I can get myself attuned to the situation, the group, the issue at hand, then I feel I'm, I'm sure about what I'm offering.
Then I feel like I've, I'm offering something of value. And once I get clear about that, then the rest of me can relax. and be much more present. And for me, that value is almost always Rooted in a different way of seeing what's going on from others in the room. I'm trying to make that like a unique perspective.
So you're finding your own personal unique perspective, right? And the ability to articulate it and put it into the room, not [00:21:00] just because it's different and interesting, but because there's value in it for the, for the issue that people are trying to solve. Do you think that's a, just a deeper connection?
So you're, you're going deep enough so that you can really connect with what's going on in front of you and around you? It is. It's a, it's a, It's it's a process that lends a different kind of clarity and a different way of looking and discerning what might be workable. Some people would say that that's actually.
your connection to, you know, source energy and spirit in the universe and a real spiritual experience. What, what would you say to that? Like, I would say yes to that. All of the above, I think. Yeah. and I, you know, usually [00:22:00] that sort of thing is very It feels like it's very dependent on context on the environment that you're in and the people that you're with.
And oftentimes, yes, that's impacted that way. But if you can strengthen that sense of your own connection to spirit and soul, really, then It's possible to hold yourself and your own integrity and your own creativity, no matter what situation you're in. There's a bravery that comes with that though, too, right?
And a real trust, because it doesn't always make sense. Can you give us an example of a situation you've been in where it didn't really make sense, but then it kind of all came together? I mean, putting you on the spot, but. Yes. Yes.you are putting me on the spot, but I, I'm rifling through my memory [00:23:00] bank.
yes, there was a time when I was,
I was working in a co working space and it's this story. It's in my, it's in my book actually. And, the, the owner, was aware that people wanted to bring their dogs, you know, people had dogs, they were there all day working. They wanted their dogs to be with them and, and, you know, and some, depending on the dog, sometimes it worked out great and sometimes it didn't.
but the, But the membership, I guess there were about 35 of us at the time, we're starting to split into two camps, you know, the dog lovers and the dog haters. And she was aware of this, and she didn't know what to do about it. She came to me, and said, I don't, how are we going to figure this out?
Cause it's, this [00:24:00] is a situation that's just going to get worse. And she's, she was absolutely right. when a problem starts to devolve into a black and white binary and it can, it can become really toxic. And we've seen all kinds of samples of this, on our planet. and, I had just put together a game, a card game, called Shift P O V. Which, was comprised of three timed discussion rounds on an issue intersected with 60 second random factor breaks.
Random factors are cards where, you're either invited to make an observation or tune into a question or take an action of some kind. And that action can be.rather odd, like, stand on a chair and sing a favorite song. I mean, things like that. Okay. It sounds like a bit of an oracle card [00:25:00] for teams.
Yeah. Right. Right. So,she, you know, I described the game to her and she kind of looked at me like I was crazy. But I say, you know, let's just try it out. It can't hurt. It might help because the point of the game is to get people to literally step into the shoes and the perspective of whoever it is that's opposing you.
So that means you've got to listen pretty specifically to the, the merit of the opposing side's argument. Because if you don't, in the second round, you're required to take that position. And if you haven't listened, then you got nothing to say. Yes. So, right. So we did it. And it turns out that one of the young women, who was really opposed to having dogs in the [00:26:00] workspace, she shared the story of being raised in an Asian large city with feral dogs running in packs.
that were extremely dangerous, especially to small children.while she was telling that story, you could have heard a pin drop in the group. And as a result of that story, people started to figure out, a lot of good, healthy boundaries and parameters around having dogs in space. So she came to me later, saying that she was on the verge of quitting her membership over this dog thing.
And she was grateful that we had used the game to put together some solutions. Very good. That's awesome. And so what caused you, so I guess it's all about communication really, isn't it? So that's why you [00:27:00] created the game in the first place, because it's obviously at the heart of your work. And, you know, it was, it was sparked by this amazing book, by Chip and Dan Heath called, what was it called?
It's not, it's about change. It was their original book. I don't know why. I think my, it's 730 in the evening and my memory banks aren't what they could be earlier in the day, but it'll come to me, but there, there's a beautiful working metaphor in the book, the, the elephant, the rider and the road.
And the rider, when it comes to making change, the rider is the one that knows the change has to be made. The elephant is our emotional state. The elephant just wants things to be comfy. wants everything to be normal, doesn't want to change. [00:28:00] The elephant wants to eat its twinkies and not be bugged by the rider to lose some weight, right?
So if the rider beats the elephant, will that change the elephant mind? No. The rider has to come up with some carrots and the rider has to shrink the change into digestible. Bits. Sure. And the road is the environment. Some environments are conducive to change and some are not. So that's what sparked the game, was that model as an experiential way to step into, change and decision, and listening to all stakeholders at the table.
So creative, I mean, that's just such a creative, concept and, you know, to. Take an idea like that and then change and turn it [00:29:00] into a game, it's really powerful. Okay. So, I mean, we sort of touched on it already, but, in terms of, you know,how creativity can support us, you know, do you, do you think that creativity is really the way that we learn, learn about ourselves, you know, does it help us understand ourselves and figure out who we really are in the world?
I, I would, I would definitely say yes, absolute.And I, I feel like we need to expand our notion of what creativity is, you know, creativity kind of gets pigeonholed into the artistic, you know,especially gifted box. Andmost of us don't consider ourselves to be particularly, especially gifted.
And if we're not geniuses right out of the box, then we label ourselves as not creative and it's. It's a way of staying [00:30:00] safe, right? It's a way of, like, appeasing our elephant. The one that wants us to stay in the boring, awful job because it's steady and it provides a paycheck. And that's really all we can expect out of life.
That's the elephant. And even if the writer is bored out of their minds, and wants to change, the elephant isn't going to, unless it's enticed and the change. And that's, I think, I think that's the beauty of small, small doses of creativity. You know, my 15 minute collage break or just take yourself to an art show or considering creativity to be problem solving, right?
When I was, when I was 12 years old, [00:31:00] I. liked to sew. I wasn't particularly good at sewing, but it didn't matter. I liked to sew. and I was sewing something on my grandmother's ancient sewing machine and the, the, the belt that went around the wheel that was attached to the pedal, it was rawhide, was this rawhide cord and it broke.
I was like, Oh, what am I going to do? You know, nobody was home. Nobody was there to help me. So I thought, well, I could get, I could get a span of clothesline and figure out how to put that together and make my own belt. And wouldn't, you know, it worked, right? And I felt highly creative because I came up with the design.
way to solve that problem. Yeah. And that's creativity too. Yes. Sometimes the work around, you know. Yes. I do [00:32:00] believe that oftentimes creativity is, is our response to an obstacle or a constriction. Yeah, sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes it's, you know, being brave enough to do it, to do it, to do something from an intuitive way.
You know what I mean? It doesn't make sense necessarily something, you know, being brave enough to own that, right. It doesn't matter what it is really. it doesn't matter what it is, but there, yes, there is, there is that element of courage that's involved. And. That's it. The willingness to just kind of, to just do it anyway, right?
Yeah. And I mean, I think I would say also, you know, you touched on the artist point. I think it's a really important one because I think there is this misconception that I've either got it or I don't. one of the things I would say is that you can learn anything if you, if you want to do it, you [00:33:00] can learn it.
Right. Just because it's creative doesn't mean that you can't learn it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So. That, that's important too, is sort of, and my own journey, you know, what I've realized throughout my own creative journey, like I can paint beautiful things, but I've realized that it's the process itself that really holds the magic.
That's what keeps me showing up, right? Just like your collage. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's the process during the pandemic, you know, I have to say that the world was in a really difficult place during that time. So many people lost their lives. There were so many mistakes made just in terms of public health, everything else that was so much agony, people losing their jobs.
I was fortunate enough as Many people were, for the first time, self employed people in our country were able to get [00:34:00] unemployment. because all of my work was in person and it all blew up in smoke, right? But I also have to say that the silver lining during that time was time. Unstructured time, you know?
And I wrote my book during that time. Mm hmm. I had been saving broken pieces of pottery because I couldn't bear to give them up. I didn't know what I was going to do with them, but I had this whole crate full of beautiful pieces of broken pottery. So I created my smash garden, which there's a area of my yard where nothing seems to grow.
It's around a lilac bush. And so I, I. I did some dark bark mulching, and then I just, I started mulching with my pieces of smash pottery. It was very [00:35:00] satisfying. And I, I created my smash garden. And it was pretty cool. I was pretty proud of it. So good. Yeah. So we touched on it a bit before, but you know, what's really important for you in terms of looking after yourself and your own personal self care?
you know, what, what do you do on a regular basis that you wouldn't be without obviously collage? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But I also think that it's, I've always struggled to meditate, you know, I've been getting better at it slowly. And just making time and space to slow down and pay attention to wherever I find myself.
and I've been learning some breathing patterns that have been helping enormously. There's this one where you take [00:36:00] two inhales and then you do a long exhale. Do that a couple of times. It triggers your autonomic nervous system. And it's, it's highly effective. Yeah, sure. So I've been experimenting with that.
And also I've been, a friend of mine teaches improvisational singing. And so I will once in a while dive into her circle sing, just to hear the sound of the human voice again in singing. So. A quick energy release. Yes, a quick energy release with other people. It's wicked. Yeah. Well, I mean, you touched on meditation, but the collage is probably a [00:37:00] meditation.
It's just that it's not branded that right. It's Right. Yeah. It's like anything where you can sort of stop time and lose yourself is, I think, meditative. Definitely. Absolutely. So for all the women out there who want to get more clarity and confidence in their lives, what powerful questions would you have them ask themselves today?
I would ask them to take a moment to get clear about the future that you are saying yes to actions. I think it's not always easy for us to see ourselves clearly, but if we take [00:38:00] note. Of the actions that we take repeatedly. There are clues to the future that we're building, and there are clues to the person we are becoming.
Intention. Intention. Mm. Without a direction, who knows where we'll end up, right? We get to choose. We get to choose. So powerful. So Kym, how can people get to know you better and get a real feel for the work that you're doing? That's, thank you for. For that question. you can find more about me at Kymdakin.
com. K Y M D A K I N. com. And my, my sub stack, the name of my sub stack is the moving pen. Excellent. Thank you so much for coming and chatting to me today. I loved our conversation. Thank you so much. [00:39:00] Thank you, Samantha. This has been really joyful.
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